Michael A. Persinger
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CharlieBigPpotato
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- Joined: Mon 20 Feb 2006, 11:53
Michael A. Persinger
Tehkääs haku osoitteessa http://www.pubmed.com hakusanoilla: persinger ma
If the falling tide can turn and then recover, all alone we must be part of one another
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CharlieBigPpotato
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- Joined: Mon 20 Feb 2006, 11:53
Mielenkiintoisia tutkimusaiheita ainakin. Varsinkin Perceptual and motor skills-julkaisussa.
Esim.
Application of transcerebral, weak (1 microT) complex magnetic fields and mystical experiences: are they generated by field-induced dimethyltryptamine release from the pineal organ?
Hill DR, Persinger MA.
Percept Mot Skills. 2003 Dec;97(3 Pt 2):1049-50.
During the last 15 years weak, complex magnetic fields have been applied across the two cerebral hemispheres at the level of the temporoparietal lobes of more than 500 volunteers. Most of these subjects have reported visual, vestibular, and proprioceptive sensations as well as experiences of detachment from the body of 'sentient beings'. Similar but more intense experiences were reported by Strassman in 2001 for volunteers who were injected with N,n-dimethyltryptamine, a compound Strassman hypothesized as the primary mediator of these experiences. If this speculation is valid, then subjects who are exposed to the very weak, complex fields known to elicit similar experiences should display significant increases in the metabolites of this compound within their blood.
PubMed[/url]
Esim.
Application of transcerebral, weak (1 microT) complex magnetic fields and mystical experiences: are they generated by field-induced dimethyltryptamine release from the pineal organ?
Hill DR, Persinger MA.
Percept Mot Skills. 2003 Dec;97(3 Pt 2):1049-50.
During the last 15 years weak, complex magnetic fields have been applied across the two cerebral hemispheres at the level of the temporoparietal lobes of more than 500 volunteers. Most of these subjects have reported visual, vestibular, and proprioceptive sensations as well as experiences of detachment from the body of 'sentient beings'. Similar but more intense experiences were reported by Strassman in 2001 for volunteers who were injected with N,n-dimethyltryptamine, a compound Strassman hypothesized as the primary mediator of these experiences. If this speculation is valid, then subjects who are exposed to the very weak, complex fields known to elicit similar experiences should display significant increases in the metabolites of this compound within their blood.
PubMed[/url]
If the falling tide can turn and then recover, all alone we must be part of one another
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Kalastaja
Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak complex magnetic fields.
Granqvist P, Fredrikson M, Unge P, Hagenfeldt A,Valind S,Larhammar D,Larsson M.
Neurosci Lett. 2005 Jun 3;380(3):346-7; author reply 348-50.
Department of Psychology, Uppsala University, Sweden. pehr.granqvist@psyk.uu.se
Transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) with weak (micro Tesla) complex waveform fields have been claimed to evoke the sensed presence of a sentient being in up to 80% in the general population. These findings have had a questionable neurophysiological foundation as the fields are approximately six orders of magnitude weaker than ordinary TMS fields. Also, no independent replication has been reported. To replicate and extend previous findings, we performed a double-blind experiment (N=89), with a sham-field control group. Personality characteristics indicating suggestibility (absorption, signs of abnormal temporal lobe activity, and a "new age"-lifestyle orientation) were used as predictors. Sensed presence, mystical, and other somatosensory experiences previously reported from the magnetic field stimulation were outcome measures. We found no evidence for any effects of the magnetic fields, neither in the entire group, nor in individuals high in suggestibility. Because the personality characteristics significantly predicted outcomes, suggestibility may account for previously reported effects. Our results strongly question the earlier claims of experiential effects of weak magnetic fields.
PMID: 15849873 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
pubmed
A response to Granqvist et al. "Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak magnetic fields".
Persinger MA, Koren SA.
Neurosci Lett. 2005 Apr 29;379(1):1-6.
ScienceDirect
PMID: 15862915 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Experimental facilitation of the sensed presence is predicted by the specific patterns of the applied magnetic fields, not by suggestibility: re-analyses of 19 experiments.
St-Pierre LS,Persinger MA.
Int J Neurosci. 2006 Sep;116(9):1079-96
Behavioral Neuroscience Research Laboratory, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.
If all experiences are generated by brain activity, then experiences of God and spirits should also be produced by the appropriate cerebral stimulation. During the last 15 years experiments have shown that the sensed presence of a "Sentient Being" can be reliably evoked by very specific temporal patterns of weak (<1 microT) transcerebral magnetic fields applied across the temporoparietal region of the two hemispheres. Recently Granqvist et al. (2005) attributed these effects to suggestibility and exotic beliefs. Re-analyses with additional data for 407 subjects (19 experiments) showed that the magnetic configurations, not the subjects' exotic beliefs or suggestibility, were responsible for the experimental facilitation of sensing a presence. On the other hand, the subjects' histories of sensed presences before exposure to the experimental setting were moderately correlated with exotic beliefs and temporal lobe sensitivity. Several recent experiments have shown that the side attributed to the presence at the time of the experience is sensitive to the temporal parameters of the fields, the hemisphere to which they are maximized, and the person's a priori beliefs. The importance of verifying the specific timing and temporal pattern of the software-generated fields and following an effective protocol is emphasized.
PMID: 16861170 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Pubmed
Contribution of religiousness in the prediction and interpretation of mystical experiences in a sensory deprivation context: activation of religious schemas.
Granqvist P,Larsson M.
J Psychol. 2006 Jul;140(4):319-27
Department of Psychology, Uppsala University, Sweden. Pehr.Granqvist@psyk.uu.se
M. A. Persinger (2002) claimed that transcranial magnetic stimulation with weak, complex magnetic fields evokes mystical experiences. However, in a double-blind experiment, P. Granqvist, M. Fredrikson, P. Unge, A. Hagenfeldt, S. Valind., et al. (2005) found no effects of field exposure on mystical experiences (N = 89), though a minority of participants reported spontaneous mystical experiences. Following the conclusion of null effects from magnetic field exposure, the setup of this experiment, including pre-experimental assessments of religiousness and sensory deprivation, can be viewed as a prime/setting for such experiences. The authors analyzed subsets of experimental data from P. Granqvist and colleagues with emphasis on the contribution of religiousness in the prediction and interpretation of mystical experiences. They found that a higher degree of religiousness predicted a higher occurrence of mystical experiences with a religious quality, but not of mystical experiences without such a quality. The authors discuss findings in terms of the experimental setup serving as a prime/setting activating the religious schemas of religious participants.
PMID: 16967739 [PubMed - in process]
pubmed
Jos Charlie pääset käsiksi noihin, voisitko upata ne sinne sun sivuille tai pistää mulle vaikka mailina :)
hähää vuorisaarnaa:
Why revelations have occurred on mountains? Linking mystical experiences and cognitive neuroscience.
Arzy S,Idel M,Landis T, Blanke O.
Med Hypotheses. 2005;65(5):841-5
Laboratory of Cognitive Neuroscience, Brain-Mind Institute, Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne (EPFL), Lausanne, Switzerland. Shahar.arzy@epfl.ch
The fundamental revelations to the founders of the three monotheistic religions, among many other revelation experiences, had occurred on a mountain. These three revelation experiences share many phenomenological components like feeling and hearing a presence, seeing a figure, seeing lights, and feeling of fear. In addition, similar experiences have been reported by non-mystic contemporary mountaineers. The similarities between these revelations on mountains and their appearance in contemporary mountaineers suggest that exposure to altitude might affect functional and neural mechanisms, thus facilitating the experience of a revelation. Different functions relying on brain areas such as the temporo-parietal junction and the prefrontal cortex have been suggested to be altered in altitude. Moreover, acute and chronic hypoxia significantly affect the temporo-parietal junction and the prefrontal cortex and both areas have also been linked to altered own body perceptions and mystical experiences. Prolonged stay at high altitudes, especially in social deprivation, may also lead to prefrontal lobe dysfunctions such as low resistance to stress and loss of inhibition. Based on these phenomenological, functional, and neural findings we suggest that exposure to altitudes might contribute to the induction of revelation experiences and might further our understanding of the mountain metaphor in religion. Mystical and religious experiences are important not only to the mystic himself, but also to many followers, as it was indeed with respect to the leaders of the three monotheistic religions. Yet, concerning its subjective character, mystical experiences are almost never accessible to the scholars interested in examining them. The tools of cognitive neuroscience make it possible to approach religious and mystical experiences not only by the semantical analysis of texts, but also by approaching similar experiences in healthy subjects during prolonged stays at high altitude and/or in cognitive paradigms. Cognitive neurosciences, in turn, might profit from the research of mysticism in their endeavor to further our understanding of mechanisms of corporeal awareness and self consciousness.
PMID: 16054773 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Pubmed
SVT: Vetenskapens värld. Gudsmaskin eller sockerpiller
Tossa haastateltu Granqvistia ja Persingeria, ja testattu magneettikypärää. Ei toiminut kypärä.
Granqvist sanoo, että Persinger ei ehkä ole ollut kovin tarkka double blindinsa kanssa, ja että muutenkin saattoi olla vähän heikko setting. Itse ottivat tosiaan sen 89 henkilöä, joista puolet oli Uppsalan teologian ja puolet psykologian laitokselta. | Ilmeisesti psykologian laitoksella ei voi olla valoisaa porukkaa!
Persinger sanoi, että ruotsalaisilla on ollut
-väärä kypärä (vaikka saivat sen Persingeriltä)
-ruotsalaiset ovat käyttäneet kypärää vain 15min, vaikka Persinger käytti 20min (Persinger kylläkin tarkastanut ruotsalaisten kokeet jo etukäteen, ja Persingerin kokeet näyttävät 15 min. riittävän)
-windows haittasi magneetteja (ruotsalaisilla tosin ollut aika pitkälti muu kuin windows käyttiksenä)
Tossa vielä Persingerin kotisivu:
http://laurentian.ca/neurosci/_people/Persinger.htm
Granqvist P, Fredrikson M, Unge P, Hagenfeldt A,Valind S,Larhammar D,Larsson M.
Neurosci Lett. 2005 Jun 3;380(3):346-7; author reply 348-50.
Department of Psychology, Uppsala University, Sweden. pehr.granqvist@psyk.uu.se
Transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) with weak (micro Tesla) complex waveform fields have been claimed to evoke the sensed presence of a sentient being in up to 80% in the general population. These findings have had a questionable neurophysiological foundation as the fields are approximately six orders of magnitude weaker than ordinary TMS fields. Also, no independent replication has been reported. To replicate and extend previous findings, we performed a double-blind experiment (N=89), with a sham-field control group. Personality characteristics indicating suggestibility (absorption, signs of abnormal temporal lobe activity, and a "new age"-lifestyle orientation) were used as predictors. Sensed presence, mystical, and other somatosensory experiences previously reported from the magnetic field stimulation were outcome measures. We found no evidence for any effects of the magnetic fields, neither in the entire group, nor in individuals high in suggestibility. Because the personality characteristics significantly predicted outcomes, suggestibility may account for previously reported effects. Our results strongly question the earlier claims of experiential effects of weak magnetic fields.
PMID: 15849873 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
pubmed
A response to Granqvist et al. "Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak magnetic fields".
Persinger MA, Koren SA.
Neurosci Lett. 2005 Apr 29;379(1):1-6.
ScienceDirect
PMID: 15862915 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Experimental facilitation of the sensed presence is predicted by the specific patterns of the applied magnetic fields, not by suggestibility: re-analyses of 19 experiments.
St-Pierre LS,Persinger MA.
Int J Neurosci. 2006 Sep;116(9):1079-96
Behavioral Neuroscience Research Laboratory, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.
If all experiences are generated by brain activity, then experiences of God and spirits should also be produced by the appropriate cerebral stimulation. During the last 15 years experiments have shown that the sensed presence of a "Sentient Being" can be reliably evoked by very specific temporal patterns of weak (<1 microT) transcerebral magnetic fields applied across the temporoparietal region of the two hemispheres. Recently Granqvist et al. (2005) attributed these effects to suggestibility and exotic beliefs. Re-analyses with additional data for 407 subjects (19 experiments) showed that the magnetic configurations, not the subjects' exotic beliefs or suggestibility, were responsible for the experimental facilitation of sensing a presence. On the other hand, the subjects' histories of sensed presences before exposure to the experimental setting were moderately correlated with exotic beliefs and temporal lobe sensitivity. Several recent experiments have shown that the side attributed to the presence at the time of the experience is sensitive to the temporal parameters of the fields, the hemisphere to which they are maximized, and the person's a priori beliefs. The importance of verifying the specific timing and temporal pattern of the software-generated fields and following an effective protocol is emphasized.
PMID: 16861170 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Pubmed
Contribution of religiousness in the prediction and interpretation of mystical experiences in a sensory deprivation context: activation of religious schemas.
Granqvist P,Larsson M.
J Psychol. 2006 Jul;140(4):319-27
Department of Psychology, Uppsala University, Sweden. Pehr.Granqvist@psyk.uu.se
M. A. Persinger (2002) claimed that transcranial magnetic stimulation with weak, complex magnetic fields evokes mystical experiences. However, in a double-blind experiment, P. Granqvist, M. Fredrikson, P. Unge, A. Hagenfeldt, S. Valind., et al. (2005) found no effects of field exposure on mystical experiences (N = 89), though a minority of participants reported spontaneous mystical experiences. Following the conclusion of null effects from magnetic field exposure, the setup of this experiment, including pre-experimental assessments of religiousness and sensory deprivation, can be viewed as a prime/setting for such experiences. The authors analyzed subsets of experimental data from P. Granqvist and colleagues with emphasis on the contribution of religiousness in the prediction and interpretation of mystical experiences. They found that a higher degree of religiousness predicted a higher occurrence of mystical experiences with a religious quality, but not of mystical experiences without such a quality. The authors discuss findings in terms of the experimental setup serving as a prime/setting activating the religious schemas of religious participants.
PMID: 16967739 [PubMed - in process]
pubmed
Jos Charlie pääset käsiksi noihin, voisitko upata ne sinne sun sivuille tai pistää mulle vaikka mailina :)
hähää vuorisaarnaa:
Why revelations have occurred on mountains? Linking mystical experiences and cognitive neuroscience.
Arzy S,Idel M,Landis T, Blanke O.
Med Hypotheses. 2005;65(5):841-5
Laboratory of Cognitive Neuroscience, Brain-Mind Institute, Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne (EPFL), Lausanne, Switzerland. Shahar.arzy@epfl.ch
The fundamental revelations to the founders of the three monotheistic religions, among many other revelation experiences, had occurred on a mountain. These three revelation experiences share many phenomenological components like feeling and hearing a presence, seeing a figure, seeing lights, and feeling of fear. In addition, similar experiences have been reported by non-mystic contemporary mountaineers. The similarities between these revelations on mountains and their appearance in contemporary mountaineers suggest that exposure to altitude might affect functional and neural mechanisms, thus facilitating the experience of a revelation. Different functions relying on brain areas such as the temporo-parietal junction and the prefrontal cortex have been suggested to be altered in altitude. Moreover, acute and chronic hypoxia significantly affect the temporo-parietal junction and the prefrontal cortex and both areas have also been linked to altered own body perceptions and mystical experiences. Prolonged stay at high altitudes, especially in social deprivation, may also lead to prefrontal lobe dysfunctions such as low resistance to stress and loss of inhibition. Based on these phenomenological, functional, and neural findings we suggest that exposure to altitudes might contribute to the induction of revelation experiences and might further our understanding of the mountain metaphor in religion. Mystical and religious experiences are important not only to the mystic himself, but also to many followers, as it was indeed with respect to the leaders of the three monotheistic religions. Yet, concerning its subjective character, mystical experiences are almost never accessible to the scholars interested in examining them. The tools of cognitive neuroscience make it possible to approach religious and mystical experiences not only by the semantical analysis of texts, but also by approaching similar experiences in healthy subjects during prolonged stays at high altitude and/or in cognitive paradigms. Cognitive neurosciences, in turn, might profit from the research of mysticism in their endeavor to further our understanding of mechanisms of corporeal awareness and self consciousness.
PMID: 16054773 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Pubmed
SVT: Vetenskapens värld. Gudsmaskin eller sockerpiller
Tossa haastateltu Granqvistia ja Persingeria, ja testattu magneettikypärää. Ei toiminut kypärä.
Granqvist sanoo, että Persinger ei ehkä ole ollut kovin tarkka double blindinsa kanssa, ja että muutenkin saattoi olla vähän heikko setting. Itse ottivat tosiaan sen 89 henkilöä, joista puolet oli Uppsalan teologian ja puolet psykologian laitokselta. | Ilmeisesti psykologian laitoksella ei voi olla valoisaa porukkaa!
Persinger sanoi, että ruotsalaisilla on ollut
-väärä kypärä (vaikka saivat sen Persingeriltä)
-ruotsalaiset ovat käyttäneet kypärää vain 15min, vaikka Persinger käytti 20min (Persinger kylläkin tarkastanut ruotsalaisten kokeet jo etukäteen, ja Persingerin kokeet näyttävät 15 min. riittävän)
-windows haittasi magneetteja (ruotsalaisilla tosin ollut aika pitkälti muu kuin windows käyttiksenä)
Tossa vielä Persingerin kotisivu:
http://laurentian.ca/neurosci/_people/Persinger.htm
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Kalastaja
Granqvist ym. artikkeli, Persingerin ja Korenin vastaus siihen ja Granvist ym. vastaus Persingerin ja Korenin vastaukseen.
http://uploadhut.com/view.php/315846.pdf
Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak complex magnetic fields.
Granqvist P, Fredrikson M, Unge P, Hagenfeldt A,Valind S,Larhammar D,Larsson M.
Neurosci Lett. 2005 Jun 3;380(3):346-7
-------------------------------------
Muita:
Michael A. Persinger
The Neuropsychiatry of Paranormal Experiences
J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci, Nov 2001; 13: 515 - 524.
html , free
http://uploadhut.com/view.php/315846.pdf
Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak complex magnetic fields.
Granqvist P, Fredrikson M, Unge P, Hagenfeldt A,Valind S,Larhammar D,Larsson M.
Neurosci Lett. 2005 Jun 3;380(3):346-7
-------------------------------------
Muita:
Michael A. Persinger
The Neuropsychiatry of Paranormal Experiences
J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci, Nov 2001; 13: 515 - 524.
html , free
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The Real Blunt
- Karvakuono
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon 30 Oct 2006, 14:27
Kalastaja wrote: -windows haittasi magneetteja (ruotsalaisilla tosin ollut aika pitkälti muu kuin windows käyttiksenä)
Joo vähän vähän vaikuttaa hataralta käytännön toteutus. Mutta eiköhän se selvää ole että mystisen kokemuksen mekanismi sijaitsee jossain aivokemioissa, joten ei pitäisi olla mahdotonta tuottaa sitä kohtuu suurella todennäköisyydellä toistettavasti kunhan vaan saadaan hienosäädettyä vähän metodeja.
Forty-seven percent encountered otherworldly beings, variously described as clowns, elves, robots, insects, E.T.-style humanoids, or "entities" that defied description.
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CharlieBigPpotato
- Kameleontti
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Mon 20 Feb 2006, 11:53
Re: Michael A. Persinger
Physiologically patterned weak magnetic fields applied over left frontal lobe increase acceptance of false statements as true.
Ross ML, Koren SA, Persinger MA.
Electromagn Biol Med. 2008;27(4):365-71.
Fifty men and women were exposed to only one of four experimentally generated magnetic fields over the left prefrontal region (above the eyebrow) or to a sham field immediately after the words "true" or "false" were presented following statements of definitions of words for a "foreign language". Three of the patterns (25 Hz, 50 Hz, or burst-firing) with intensities between 1 and 10 microT were presented for 1 s during the refutation process (immediately after the offset of "true" or "false") for specific statements from a total of 28 statements. The fourth pattern was a variable approximately 7-10 Hz (10 nT) field generated from the circuitry that was present continuously during the entire experiment. When the statements were presented again, the groups who had received the burst-firing ("limbic") or 25 Hz pulsed magnetic fields during the refutation process accepted about twice the number of false statements as true compared to those exposed to the 50 Hz field or sham-field conditions. The treatments did not significantly affect the numbers of true statements accepted as false. These results suggest that the appropriately pulsed magnetic field during the refutation process of what one has been told or has heard can increase the probability a person will accept a false statement as true.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19037785
Ross ML, Koren SA, Persinger MA.
Electromagn Biol Med. 2008;27(4):365-71.
Fifty men and women were exposed to only one of four experimentally generated magnetic fields over the left prefrontal region (above the eyebrow) or to a sham field immediately after the words "true" or "false" were presented following statements of definitions of words for a "foreign language". Three of the patterns (25 Hz, 50 Hz, or burst-firing) with intensities between 1 and 10 microT were presented for 1 s during the refutation process (immediately after the offset of "true" or "false") for specific statements from a total of 28 statements. The fourth pattern was a variable approximately 7-10 Hz (10 nT) field generated from the circuitry that was present continuously during the entire experiment. When the statements were presented again, the groups who had received the burst-firing ("limbic") or 25 Hz pulsed magnetic fields during the refutation process accepted about twice the number of false statements as true compared to those exposed to the 50 Hz field or sham-field conditions. The treatments did not significantly affect the numbers of true statements accepted as false. These results suggest that the appropriately pulsed magnetic field during the refutation process of what one has been told or has heard can increase the probability a person will accept a false statement as true.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19037785
If the falling tide can turn and then recover, all alone we must be part of one another
-
Ahab
Re: Michael A. Persinger
Voisiko tää olla jonkinlainen claridad factor jos jossain vaiheessa todetaan että psykedeelit voi tuottaa jotain vastaa?CharlieBigPpotato wrote:Physiologically patterned weak magnetic fields applied over left frontal lobe increase acceptance of false statements as true.
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Touchet
- Moderator
- Posts: 1711
- Joined: Fri 18 May 2007, 14:45
Re: Michael A. Persinger
Ks. myös termi transliminaliteetti ja Thalbournen paperit Temporal lobe lability in the highly transliminal mind & Transliminality, thin boundaries, Unusual Experiences, and temporal lobe lability. Tämä on myös aika jännä: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18635162Ahab wrote:Voisiko tää olla jonkinlainen claridad factor jos jossain vaiheessa todetaan että psykedeelit voi tuottaa jotain vastaa?CharlieBigPpotato wrote:Physiologically patterned weak magnetic fields applied over left frontal lobe increase acceptance of false statements as true.
"Jos ihmismieli on ihmeellisin asia mitä maa päällään kantaa, pyrkimys tutkia narkoottisten ja stimuloivien aineiden psykofysiologisen vaikutuksen syvyyksiä saa tämän ihmeen vaikuttamaan vieläkin suuremmalta."
— Professori Louis Lewin, 1924
— Professori Louis Lewin, 1924
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Ahab
Re: Michael A. Persinger
Katson jaksamisen mukaan mutta jos sä oot jo tutkinut asiaa niin olis mukava kuulla sun mielipide.Touchet wrote:Ks. myös ...
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Ahab
Re: Michael A. Persinger
Niin tuli mieleen että olisiko tässä vaan kyse suggestio altiudesta. Joka saattaa olla myös psykedeelien terapeuttisten vaikutusten takana. Että tota voisi käyttää positiiviseenkin tarkoitukseen. Siis saada ihminen uskomaan tosi väite totena. Siis esimerkiksi saada syömishäiriöinen uskomaan että sinä olet sopusuhtainen tms.CharlieBigPpotato wrote:Physiologically patterned weak magnetic fields applied over left frontal lobe increase acceptance of false statements as true.
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Aukikco
- OD
- Posts: 1492
- Joined: Wed 29 Aug 2007, 01:42
Re: Michael A. Persinger
Epäaristoteelinen ajattelu helpottais tässäkin, kun unohdettais että muka tarvis ajatella, että asia faktana "on" tai "ei ole".Ahab wrote:Siis esimerkiksi saada syömishäiriöinen uskomaan että sinä olet sopusuhtainen tms.
Mutta joo, se ajatus mitä tolla varsinaisesti haet, ni todellakin.